Speakers

• Isaac Sacolick – President of StarCIO. Bestselling author. 1,000+ articles on StarCIO, CIO.com, and InfoWorld. Keynote speaker. CIO and Digital Transformation influencer. Thinkers360 top IT, DevOps, and Agile Leader.
• David Morgen – IT Senior Project Manager
• Joanne Friedman – CEO/Principal of Smart Manufacturing at Comnnektedminds Inc, Industry 4.0 and Digital Transformation Coach
• Joe Puglisi – Chairman, North Andover Investors. Veteran CIO in construction and manufacturing
• Heather May – Founder/President of May Executive Search.
• Martin Davis – Managing Partner, DUNELM Associates. Veteran CIO in manufacturing.
• John Patrick Luethe – Launching Products and Services since 2005
• Liz Martinez – MD at The PMO Whisperer

About the Coffee With Digital Trailblazers

The event is hosted by Isaac Sacolick on LinkedIn Fridays at 11 am ET. The event attacts digitial transformation leaders, from CXOs to team leaders, who learn from experts on driving change in their organizations. Every week we explore a topic and share lessons learned, and all are welcom to attend. Visit https://starcio.com/coffee/next-event which will redirect to the next event.

Recordings of the events are available to StarCIO Digital Trailblazer Community members .Review the community’s advisory, leadernng, and leadership programs.

Episode White Board

Episode Transcript

Isaac Sacolick: Greetings. Everyone welcome to this week’s uh coffee with digital trailblazers. We’re still getting used to this new format. Uh, where I have to make several clicks to just get the. Event started. Um, but I think we’re here. I’m starting to see some people trickle in. And uh, if you are here uh, give a give a shout out in the comments. We can’t. In this new format. We can’t see. That you’re here. All I get is a number and the same number that you’re saying. And if you want to remain anonymous, that’s great for you uh, but if you want to be known and seen and and uh make some connections, do leave a comment and just say Hello. Uh! I know I have, John here. It looks like Joanne Joe. Uh is here with me, and I’m hoping my good friend Dave is going to be joining with. This was actually. His topic. And so I’m I’m expecting him here. And. This is her last week. Uh for the seasonal year. I’m skipping next week during the holiday, trying to give all of us a a mental break, and giving all of your a break um from joining. Ah! David is having trouble joining. Okay. Uh give me a second. He’s still thinking we’re using the old format. And doesn’t realize that they’re. Isn’t a way to do that, even though I told him. Okay, hold on. Join via zoom. Okay. Okay, Joe. Uh, Dave, you’re probably listening, and you’ll need to drop out of the Linkedin environment. And go to that link. I just sent you for the zoom environment. That’s where we broadcast from so. Uh, we’re gonna give David a few seconds to join. Hi Kristen. It’s good to see you. I hope things are going well. Hi, Alma! Hi Aurelian. Uh happy holidays to all of you. Um happy New Year since I won’t see you before 2025, and. Um looking forward for our conversation today that David had suggested, here he is, coming in. It’s on moral courage. To do to doing the right thing the right way. And we have a few topics that we’ll go through. David. You should be here listening. And I think we have our quorum. So I’m gonna get started. Hello, Jeanette, thanks for everybody for saying Hi! In the comment stream. I am monitoring this. So if you do have a comment, if you have a question, please do reach out to us. And you could see if you are watching on video. Um, we are. Gonna continue to try this whiteboard thing. I have a slightly easier format this time around um for us to edit. If we want to take notes and and share it with you. I do have the whiteboard from last week. And uh, you know, I will be posting that probably after later this afternoon. I’ll probably post both of them at the same time. Uh great to see you all, and let’s just get started. A uh, David, can you go off mute? Make sure your your mic is working.

David Morgen: Alright! Can you hear me now?

Isaac Sacolick: We can hear you now. Hi, David! It’s good to see you. We’re going to start off with our 1st question. Um, you know you you. This was actually your questions. This is from your notes about what we should talk about in this session. How do you remain loyal. With whom you are, and help you, and pursue.

David Morgen: Oh, you’re breaking up a little.

Isaac Sacolick: Is everybody else hearing me? Okay. John, can you hear me? Okay.

john: Isaac. It’s I’m getting a little bit of static when you talk. It’s almost like you’re underwater. But um! The the person that just joined. He sounds great. So maybe you’re Mike.

Isaac Sacolick: Okay, uh, let me get the question off, and I’ll go off my mic and try a different one. David, how do you remain loyal to who you are? And helmet, how people perceive you or your brand as a person. And a company welcome to the stage. David.

David Morgen: Thank you. Ah! Yeah, this is a lot of this is really more about what questions you ask yourself. A lot of times we get so wrapped up in the how are we supposed to do this? To. Ah! We. Keeping track, of. Um, you know. Should we be doing this? In the 1st place? Are we doing the right thing. And right, not not just being from an ethical point of view, but also. The the correct thing, and a lot of it is. A matter of. How do you know. So uh asking asking yourself some questions, I think is really critical. So I’ve uh. Drafted a few questions. Including. How do you know I. That you are doing the right thing when there’s a lot of noise, especially during a crisis. And some of that. How do you separate the noise from the information you need to make a decision.

Joseph Puglisi: Yeah, I think that makes perfect. So I’ll just jump in here while Isaac gets his microphone sorted.

David Morgen: So. Thanks.

Joseph Puglisi: But I hear what you’re saying, David. I think that introspection is key. As is uh consistency. Right? Uh. When you’re all over the place. Changing your mind this way and that way that tends to undermine. That sense of consistency, and and can really. Ah, detract from from loyalty. Yeah.

Isaac Sacolick: Uh, thank you, David and Joe. I actually figured out what was wrong with my mic setup. You should be hearing me a little bit better uh.

David Morgen: Yeah, we can hear you. Well.

Isaac Sacolick: Excellent.

David Morgen: That’s good.

Isaac Sacolick: Sorry everyone. Welcome to the to the conversation. Sri Heather, Mary Beth, Tieb, Derek, and Keith. Thank you for joining us today. We’re having our conversation on moral courage to do the right thing. Let’s bring Joanne in, Joanne. How do you remain loyal. Uh to to people and and to your brand when you’re under pressure. Joanne, you’re on mute. I think I don’t see you. Joanne looks like she’s stuck, John, you wanna join us.

john: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s really important to have um. Your own principles. You know your own kind of like your values on things, and and I think it’s really important to to try to stay to your values when you’re in complicated situations. Um. And uh, you know, I’ve been attached to the business school in Seattle, and it’s it’s just spending time with some of the Jesuits there and kind of hearing how they talk through complicated, you know. Decision making is it’s been really, really interesting over the last couple of years. And if if you’re dealing with something that’s more facts. Or kind of more decisions. Um, I always think it’s important to to argue to the point where um, you get to something that’s non-material. And once you get to the point where you’re arguing things that are non material like those, I’ve always decided it’s just best to get everyone to go in the same direction.

Isaac Sacolick: I like that that. Phrase arrive at something that’s not material. There’s a. A phrase I use in my book, and I say that I want my teams. Hosting, collegial debates. And being able to. Have a debate around something, and to bring that up. But I like this ease. I like this. I don’t know if I like the word. Argue, John, but I like this idea of breaking it down to the point where a problem or debate to a point where maybe you’re getting to some immaterial areas. Joanne, are you still here, or did I lose you. Doing um. I see her fathom here, but I don’t see her. Joined, and I’m not sure that’s a good thing. So Dave will go back to you. Uh, you know. Uh, I I mentioned being under pressure. It’s really where. A person’s moral courage can become. Um challenged. You know. How do you? What, what’s going on in your mind when you know. You’re being asked to do something. That goes against your fiber. And how do you like wrestle that in your mind?

David Morgen: Yeah. And and there are 2 aspects to this. One, is. The aspect of. If somebody asks you to do something that’s clearly wrong, immoral, whatever. But the real. Challenge is. Is not so much that I think the real challenge is. Um when. Uh. You’re not sure. When there’s and a lot of uncertainty. You know, maybe, what people are asking you to do might be the right thing. And how do you. Handle, your. Um, you know, manage your own. I guess internal vision of where things should go. How do you make sure that you. Have the information you want without. Um. Analysis, paralysis. So I think that those are some of the things that are key. If somebody asks you to do something. Absolutely. Morally wrong. I. I don’t think that that’s as complicated, although I guess it could be. Uh. Under a lot of pressure. But. Most of the time. The issue is more one of uncertainty.

Isaac Sacolick: Thanks, David Joanne. I think you’re here. We’re talking about. How do you remain loyal to who you are? We’re talking about a situation where you’re being forced, or having a debate around a decision that’s going against your moral fiber. And I’m going to bring another dimension here, Joanne, with you, which is. You know we each have our own um! Uh convictions and our own uh values and and ways of describing morals. And usually when there’s. Um. When when there’s something that’s in this gray area, there’s not going to be consistency over uh, who is feeling like their their their values are being. Compromised in others who are thinking it’s immoral, and some who are thinking that this is that we’re making too much of things. How do you sort that out when you’re in a room and and working through a difficult decision.

Joanne Friedman, Ph.D. Connektedminds: Um. I have always lived by one premise. To thine own self. Be true. And that is. It’s about me, and how I view the world, and how. How I can. Look myself in the mirror. So that is my guide, and I usually try and. Look around the room. Given the situation, and come to the point of saying. I would rather tell someone no, and walk away and recuse myself. From the situation. Not because I’m chickening out or being a coward about it, but rather state my belief and say, for these reasons, this is why I’m choosing to remove myself. From this situation, because either it’s a moral issue or and I feel that they’re doing the wrong thing. Or, you know, some some other scenario. That’s part of that situation. But let me relate something in a story form. I had a client. Over the summer. That um! Ah, let me! It turned out, led me down a very long and winding garden path. Ended up taking me for double digit. Thousands of dollars in fees. And I had a choice to make. Am I going to publicly shame them. Or am I going to simply relate it as a story without naming names and without pointing fingers, and say. Not only did you guys do me wrong, but now I know that you have a reputation for doing this to other people as well, because I reached out to a few who confirmed that I was not the only one who had been put in this situation. And I basically sent. Uh! After doing that, I said, well, I’m not gonna publicly shame them, even though I have every right to, because. It just makes me look bad. It doesn’t really have the impact on them. The way. I would think. However, what I am going to do instead is warn people ahead of time. If they ask my advice as an advisor, I will say. Be very careful before you get involved with this particular company, because basically. Snakes live in grass, and the grass is a little bit taller in this case, but there’s still snakes there.

Isaac Sacolick: Wow!

Joanne Friedman, Ph.D. Connektedminds: Had. That was my way of getting it out of my system, but I chose to. Rather than get embroiled in what could have been a very ugly public. Shaming of them. To, you know, use it to say to thine own self, be true. If you believe that somebody is doing something that is absolutely, morally repugnant. In the way they’re doing business with people. There is a great number of people out there in this day and age that say, you know, you can post it on Twitter post it on Linkedin. Use social media to your advantage. Get a swell going. That supports you, but really. Does that get you? It gets you the um, you know. Instant gratification of. See? I’m telling the rest of the world that you’re a bunch of. You know not nice human beings, not kind, not honorable. Or I can keep it more quiet still. Get my my anger out, and do it in a way that is. You know, a little bit more dignified. Um. And that’s how I kind of handle those situations, as you know in others. I’ve actually said to somebody, and I’ve related the story on on your broadcast that you know it’s put in a situation of a vendor trying to do a demo. I told the people the stakeholders. This is wrong. It’s gonna blow up in your face. They didn’t listen. But I was willing to put my career on on the line for it, so. Throughout my history. For the last almost 40 years. To thine own self be true if I can look at myself in the mirror and say you did the right thing, and morally you are correct, that’s all that I really care about.

Isaac Sacolick: You know, Heather has a comment here that seems appropriate. We need to know what’s worth fighting for, and when to push and how to push. And your story. I think. Um. You know I can relate to your story. Uh, I’m not gonna tell my version of this, but this idea of. You know what to do under this situation. Where you feel like you’ve been wronged, and there’s wrong going on around you, and how you handle that situation. I could tell you, Joanne. There’s a book I read. Um. And I forget the name. The author is a New York Times journalist. And he talks. I think the name of the book is called The Age of Grievance. And it’s a great great book. If you’ve felt wrong and.

Joanne Friedman, Ph.D. Connektedminds: Yeah.

Isaac Sacolick: You’re trying to figure out what to do about it, maybe what not to do about it. It helped me a lot. Um. I always do. My year of reading books, post blog, post. Usually the 1st or second week of January. I’m in line to do that again this year, but do look for that book. It’s called the Age of Grievance, and great. Book around this. Let’s move into our second question in the heat of moment. How do you know what is true? What is noise? And how much time to get time do you give to evaluate this, David? This was your question. I’ll give you the 1st shot at answering it. Well, I figured out how to make the font a little bit bigger.

David Morgen: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Um. Yeah, during during a crisis, you you get a lot of information coming in. And you need information to make a good decision. You need to make a timely decision. And the hard part is separating what is real and what isn’t. And one of the challenges is also. That some of the people providing you this information. May have a lot of influence over you. Maybe it’s your boss’s boss. Maybe it’s public pressure, or some legal thing coming down the line. But whatever it is, there’s a lot of pressure to. Make a particular decision. And knowing, you know. When when do you stand your ground. Knowing that, you know. I think Joanne had mentioned. You know you might. This might affect your career. It might affect the company customers. It might affect a lot of different people. And I’ve seen situations where. Everyone was pointing in direction. A. And the reality was um. They were all coming from the same source, which was wrong. Uh somebody had been uh essentially blaming somebody else for his own mistakes. And finding that out, and just taking a step back. And I think that’s the key here is taking a step back and giving yourself a little time with an open mind. And I think that that’s really a key. But. Kind of having your own. Approach to doing things and your own principles, not just. Relying on somebody. Somebody with a big title or. You know, told me so.

Isaac Sacolick: Dave. I want to bring Joe back in. You know. Talk about heat of the moment and noise, and what how much. Time you have to to evaluate, and about whether to weigh in or not. Talk to me about. You know board debates um. Where you know the you know, the. Gray area between business decision and ethics. Can play out a little bit, and you know you either can stay quiet. But you can’t stay quiet for too long, because the topic will move into another area. And if you’re going to say something. You probably have a limited time window to do that. How how do you think about when to jump in and and what to really weigh in on.

Joseph Puglisi: In, in a, in a crisis, situation. Uh Isaac. I often use the the term our cat. We’ve talked about this before our CAAT. And it stands for. Remain calm at all times. It’s it’s important to have a calm. And factual. Dialogue about any issue. Oftentimes it can spark strong emotions. It can spark immediate reactions before. You know it’s sort of ready shoot, aim. On! So my my best advice, and and I personally do this quite often in in board settings. I will sit back and listen to. Several people talk about, whatever the topic may be. Before I’ll jump in. So I think it’s that sort of. You know. Maintaining that calm. Rational approach to to inserting your view. After you’ve heard enough to be able to form a reasonable view. That’s my advice.

Isaac Sacolick: I captured all that, Joe, as always. You’re you’ve got um a lot to share on on a on a difficult subject. John lets you bring you back in. Now we’ll bring Liz in. John. Um. You know. This can come up within a team debate as well. Right, you know. Um! How do you handle something where somebody is saying, look, this is going to create a privacy or security issue, and others are saying, no, it’s not.

john: Well, I was gonna say, a lot of times. Um, companies have uh frameworks and kind of like um, I would say, general ways of of handling things like this. And you know, companies often have core values. And they often have, you know, principles that they’re supposed to. And so I’ve I found a lot of times, if you can just. You know. Use what the company wants you to use. To to deal with issues. Um, a lot of lot of things can. Can be resolved, and the other one is. Most bad stuff. Happens. Um when there’s no visibility to do it. And so a lot of times, if. There is bad stuff happening. You know, shining shining light on it at the the next higher level often makes bad stuff go go away or makes people um behave a way that’s appropriate. If you can remind them. You know. This is how we do all things at this company, and and if you can agree with it, and I can agree with it, let’s go up to our next common manager and have a discussion with our common manager. And let’s make it really clear. What’s what’s happening, and make sure that this is what we all want to do.

Isaac Sacolick: Thanks, John Liz. I’m sure you’re used to this this um heat of the moment. Um discussion, debate, and. You know, somebody in the group is um. Feeling like their values are being challenged, and maybe they are. Maybe that you maybe they aren’t maybe play the role facilitator here. Um! How do you flush out? What’s real and what’s noise. And how do you help the team arrive at a. An ethical decision when required.

Liz Martinez: But it’s such a challenging question, and I I hope I can be heard. Am I being heard? Yes, good. And yes, that’s actually the core of it is, you know, making sure that people are heard. If temperatures are, you know, rising, and people are feeling that their values are actually under.

Isaac Sacolick: Yes.

Liz Martinez: Under question. There’s usually something. That’s. Ah! That you can point to. That’s fact based. I loved what Joe said right. Ah! Remain calm. And look at the facts. So if we could say, You know. You know. What is it about this that you’re feeling is, you know, pointing to a value, or what is it? Can you give me an example. And if you can drive it down to something that’s very, very specific. So that it can illustrate. The problem. And that really helps ground. The conversation. And maybe helps illustrate. You know, you know the communications.

Isaac Sacolick: Thank you.

Liz Martinez: But that really also helps the person be heard right? Oftentimes people are frustrated. And. Temperatures heat up because they feel like they’re not being heard.

Isaac Sacolick: Um. I I think that’s a good point, Liz, because we’ve um. Uh, we’ve promoted and and shared and said, it’s very important to have an inclusive debate. Uh, when we’re bringing people together, we want people’s voices heard. And uh, I’m gonna bring Joanne. And then David back to this. Probably the place where I’ve seen. The most. Passionate. Um, types of debates are in 2 areas. One is in nonprofits. Um. They’re often very. There are many people working in nonprofits. That are very passionate for the cause, very passionate about making an impact. And you get into some real moral. Debates, around. Um. How to invest time, how to invest money, how to handle a situation. And the other area is is in media, David and I. Uh. Worked in media and. You know, one of the things that you see is the editorial debate on journalism, journalistic integrity. Which is hard to equate to dollars and cents in the immediate sense. And whether or when, to use a source in a major article. Um, or how to direct resources when. Editorial needs and financial business needs are at a conflict. These are a couple of things that do come up. And I just want to throw that on the table for Joanne and maybe David to comment on, because they’re not really black and white areas. They’re places where you want to hear people’s opinions. Um. And then eventually, you do have to get to a point where you make some decisions. Go ahead, Joanne.

Joanne Friedman, Ph.D. Connektedminds: Well, you know I I tend to agree. I think, that there’s passion everywhere. Um in. I I see it very often in startups. That are for profit, because you’re all working towards a particular goal. But at the same time. You know you you there’s so much going on, and and it’s very easy to get sidetracked and go down a certain rabbit hole, knowing that you also have constraints and time deliverables and everybody’s time trying to do everything at light speed. So I see a lot of passion there, but to your point and your question. You know this is when I liken back to not only the 5 e’s and empathy. Being a key driver here uh to. Create. The take the temperature down a little bit. Um, and also offer the pragmatic voice, which is the one that says. Why don’t we do a little exercise around this to settle the debate? Using the 5. Y’s. Right? I mean, we’re all familiar with that methodology. We all know that the more times you ask why, the deeper you get to the root cause. And in that root cause analysis you really understand where people’s boundaries are, and that you may have inadvertently stepped over a boundary when you had absolutely no intention of doing that. And that sort of takes the the heat out of the discussion, because now you’re looking at it from a very strategic. Problem, solving point of view. And that. Belies not only the um smarts to do it. And and the leadership skills to do it. For the audience, but also. Gets you to. These are the boundaries that we should adopt as norms. You know, way back, when we used to say, Norm Storm, perform. In those 6 sigma days. But now, if you look at 5 wise and apply that to it, you really get to a point of understanding not only people’s boundaries. But when the heat dissipates out of the dialogue. Clearer heads do prevail. Then some people will sort of step back a little bit and say, You know what you’re right. I didn’t think of it that way. Uh. Now you’re giving me the leeway to bring new information to Liz’s point and to Joe’s point. Better communications. Into the discussion.

Isaac Sacolick: Um, I love that ending. Give people the leeway. You know, we’re trying to create create some space that we hope. And may have to prompt folks to um open up their their minds and listen, and potentially. Um. Understand, be empathetic to what other people are saying, David. Uh, you’ve also worked in some very passionate areas. Your thoughts on how to. Bring people together, and then we’ll take our break, and then we’ll be back with Question 3. Go ahead, David.

David Morgen: Yeah, I think that one of the key areas when people are passionate. Is you want to keep that. You know, so you don’t want to come to the decision. But then, at the next meeting, uh, people feel like they. Um, you know they won’t be respected. So I think that the the key area is. To try to. Find some language that works for everybody, a shared understanding. Going into. The okay. Why? Why do you feel this way? What’s your vision. And as each person. Really gets into that. They start to see that they’re like. Each. Kind of attacking it from a different point of view, and that they really. The um. Have a shared feeling about 90%. But a little bit of the differences, so. You might be able to like. I think going back to making sure everyone is truly heard. So they don’t only get a chance to speak, but that you. Truly. Hear where they’re coming from, and how they’re feeling. About the the issue at hand.

Isaac Sacolick: Uh, thank you, David. I would talk about do doing a lot of listening and a lot of facilitating. Uh, not always the easiest thing to do when organizations are feeling time pressured. Um cost pressure, productivity, pressured. We’re still getting used to working. Um as we’re. You know, some companies are bringing more people back into the office. Some companies are embracing more hybrid work. And we want to bring everybody’s opinion into things. So we’re going to continue down this discussion of how developing your moral courage to do the right thing the right way. Our topic, our last topic of the year here episode 107 of the coffee with digital trailblazers. It’s so good to see you all here. We all wish everybody happy holidays and a happy New Year going into next year. We will be on a break next week, so there’s no episode on the 27.th On January 3rd we’ll be back. Um talking about culture, transformation, establishing a resilient culture. This came as one of the. Uh, recommended topics uh, during a survey I held a few weeks ago. I’m gonna try to hit as many of those as I can, so that will be on the 10.th Um. I don’t have episodes scheduled for the 17.th Or the 31st on the 24.th However, we’re going to have an extra special conversation about quantum computing. It’s been in the news a lot even more recently, with Google’s big announcement about what their latest chip is able to accomplish. I’m going to have at least one. And I think 2 experts here joining us for this one. So if you want to learn more about quantum. Ah! Do book your calendar on the 24th to be able to join us. The URL start cio.com slash, coffee, slash. Next dash event will always redirect to the upcoming event. Um, so you can always bookmark that, and then be able to find the next event, and then I left you some time and energy, if you have it during this holiday season. Join us at the digital trailblazer community. The URL for that is drive.starcio.com slash community. If you have questions about that do message me and my number one blog post of the year. This is kind of crazy. My number one blog post on drive this year, just published. On Monday, which is crazy. I’m talking about all the traffic I had this year. The one I published Monday is the number one blog post. I shared 20 different predictions about generative AI going into next year that came from 20 different experts in the field. So do look for that blog post@drive.starcio.com. Today we’re talking about. The moral courage to doing the right thing. David is our special guest. David and I worked together a couple of times once at Mcgraw Hill Construction, and once David was part of Star Cil. We’re working with a great charity called Charity Navigator. If you’re looking for a directory. Of charities to go, find, and donate to you could still donate this year and make it into your tax taxes for this year. Do visit charitynavigator.org. David and I were working on that at once, and I do see some elders from Charity navigator here joining us today here on the coffee hour. So thank you for joining us our conversation, Dave. I’m going to give you a conversation back. I do hear a comment. Worth sharing here from David Brown. Temperatures rise during friction, which often happens when we challenge the status quo. David, you have a mannerism. That really works for this. And I saw that work for you when we were working together. Journey, navigator of just bring calmness to the room and letting people voice their concerns and voice their frustrations. Voice what they’re feeling inside and doing it very patiently. Um, and and letting get all that uh come out and uh, you know, then start. Slowly steering the conversation to some of the decisions that need to be made. Now that you’ve heard everybody’s opinion. So this goes into our last question, your stories and advice. What should digital trailblazers do and not do when they sense moral, ethical, or fiduciary conflicts or transgressions? We need to actually be able to. Be transparent about these types of problems, but also help people voice their opinions and get to decisions. So, Dave, I’d love to hear your opinions? How do you address this question?

David Morgen: Up. One of one of the areas that happens is that. I think part of calmness is. Um. Not necessarily speaking immediately. Take a breath. That the initial. Your initial reaction. Um. Uh is not always the best one uh. And you know. So when you take breath, give yourself a little bit of space to. Really think about where everyone else is coming from. Uh, and. How what you’re about to say is going to drive things either forward or back. Um. Kind of reading the room and understanding where each person is, what their background is, what their goals are, how they look at the world. I. And. You know, at the. The handling of a crisis where emotions are running high. Can make a really big difference. And. Also. One thing I wanted to bring up was. How people react. Some people are very quick. They come up with a solution and they want to move forward on it right away. Some people are. Much slower. They want to do a lot of analysis. A lot of people are in between. Uh. So it’s kind of the spectrum, and just seeing where people are and how they. Come to. Together. Um. I think, is a very important aspect of this.

Isaac Sacolick: Very helpful. Um. Liz. I’m going to bring you back in here to talk about. Um. You know this idea of reading the room. Right. And you know, sometimes. You’re in a situation where you know the people ready, you know. Which buttons are gonna be hot buttons with folks, and and how to diffuse the situation. Liz, you, you’ve been a consultant. You’ve done a lot of work in a lot of different areas. And sometimes you’re walking into a room. That you don’t know the people. Um, and maybe you don’t know all the values of the company that you’re working with in and out as well as they do. Um, you know that was one of John Patrick’s recommendations. How do you read the room when you don’t know the room?

Liz Martinez: Oh, it’s. It’s definitely one of the scars of experience.

Isaac Sacolick: You have a story there, Liz.

Liz Martinez: We’ve all. Sorry.

Isaac Sacolick: You have a story there.

Liz Martinez: Oh, God! Uh, yeah, I mean, definitely, I’ve had stories of that before, you know, thinking that. You know, just because you invited someone to a meeting that they would actually be wanting to meet with you. Naive, just because they showed up. Um. But yeah, so. What’s interesting about. Being in a situation where you don’t know. The environment, the culture, the the you can’t read the room like. E just like when you’re on zoom right. Maybe you don’t. You know, people won’t go on camera even sometimes right. Um. What’s most important is to remain. Super deferential and super polite. Because it’s always easier to pull back from that. Than it is to start off more. Direct. Or start off more familiar. It’s very easy to offend somebody if you’re starting off more direct or more familiar. But if you’re super deferential and super polite, and. Super, you know. Engaging. And they. Will signal to you if that’s. If it’s over the top for them. And it creates a tremendous amount of respect. For them as a person. And they will signal to you. So, for example. Um. Thank you for meeting with me. I’m I’m really interested in hearing your perspective. I know that you have a lot of, you know, like you lay it on, I mean, I hate to say, lay it on thick. But you you make sure that they’re clear that they’re important to you, and that you’re listening to them. To the point where. They’ll start relaxing and breaking down the barriers. And that’s actually how you build a good rapport with someone. Over time, and you can see over time if they’re a more formal person or less formal person. Or you know what’s okay and what’s not. Okay. So that’s my advice.

Isaac Sacolick: Lizzie.

Liz Martinez: Not always, not always personally taken. By the way, go ahead.

Isaac Sacolick: Liz Liz, you’ve seen this with me, and Um Heather actually is commenting on this. Watch the body language, you know, every time. I do a workshop. There’s probably 10% of the room that I know. My sponsors. The other 90% that I don’t know. And if you’ve ever been a part of my workshop somewhere in here, I’m always introducing agile um as a framework to. Help people collaborate and arrive at solutions, but those of you who work in the agile space know. There’s not one agile that lives out there. There’s frameworks. There’s specific rituals that people believe in, and if I take a room of 40 people unless you’ve been in one of those rooms, David, you’ve been in one of those rooms, and you’re looking around, and you know there’s somebody who is a safe person, and somebody who’s done only done kanban, and they feel pretty passionate about.

Liz Martinez: Correct.

Isaac Sacolick: The tools and the processes they know. And the one thing I’m always looking for uh this is to Heather’s point. I’m looking for somebody who is arms are folded. Who’s like shaking their head a little bit, who is a little bit squeamish in their seats. I’m looking for those people, because I know in any given situation. When I walk in there’s probably going to be somebody there who wants who feels pretty strong, morally strong about how, what religious version of Agile. They’re following, and I’m probably saying something. That’s a little.

Liz Martinez: Uh-huh.

Isaac Sacolick: Little bit against the grain from what they’re doing, and my objective is always to bring people together, knowing that there’s probably differing opinions in the room about how to do certain things, and some of them could be very, very offensive to people. When I say, do something a little bit different than you’ve done before. I think David had said that before one bring John in, John uh.

Liz Martinez: Mhm, Mhm. Yep.

Isaac Sacolick: I’m sure you’ve seen this before, whether it’s with agile or devops. Um or making a decision around how to implement something. I think somebody said startups. I think, Joan, Joanne said. Startups. I see a lot of passion around architecture and startups. How do you diffuse a situation between a good business decision? And when something is, you know, sort of going off the moral ethical cliff.

john: Well, well, I I think the the one of the things that’s really important is to understand, like, you know, whose decision is. It is this and um in business. There’s a concept of the racy matrix which is responsible, accountable, consulted and informed. And and I just, I think, in companies, people have roles right? And when you’re making a technology decision. What what I, what I, what I know is like the important thing is to make a technology. Decision. But like, there’s a lot of usually like really good things. And a lot of times people get to the point where they’re they’re arguing over what I would describe as immaterial decisions. The important thing is to choose a decision that works and quickly choose a decision because a lot of times. The companies, like, you know, is on standstill until they come up with that decision. So if you can understand who you know what is the role that everyone plays in this decision making who is. Responsible for making the decision, who gets to provide their their opinion on things. And if you can work through that, then then you can, you can make a decision. And you can, you know, follow uh, the the basically the appropriate, like, you know, who owns this decision, and you can make the decision. You can move forward. Um. And if you get to the point where you need to do some type of technology, bake off, or or things like that, there’s there’s evaluations for it. There’s there’s ways to evaluate technology package software. There’s a valid, you know. You can look at the total cost of ownership of things. You can look at the implementation costs like, how ready is your organization if you have to get more information. That’s 1 thing. But a lot of times. The information is there. And it’s you, just you have to identify the the right way to make the decision. Who org makes that decision. Who’s the impact of the stakeholders and the other things.

Isaac Sacolick: John, I’m glad you brought this up. I mean I. A full disclosure. I despise racies. I think they’re overly complicated, but I do believe um being able to outline where decision authorities. Lie. And make sure that that’s clear, particularly when you’re getting into a room where there’s likely to be some kind of debate. Um, and making sure that if you’re going to have a decision around something that the right person is in the room. Uh to hear that debate out. I mean, that’s usually one of the areas that I see where. People are talking past each other about their opinions, around something that they can’t. Make a decision around, or that person really is in the room to do that, and it just creates a lot of angst and anger um! Instead of getting to a situation where you can actually listen and have the right person come up and say, here’s why we have to do this this way. Um, Joe, I’m sure you’ve faced this situation before. Um! I’m wondering if you have any stories to sell share around this or. Um. How do you handle the situation where there is moral or ethical, or even fiduciary conflict?

Joseph Puglisi: So I got. I got some do’s and don’ts uh I’ll I’ll stay away from actual. Stories, but but on on the do side I do like what what Liz said. You should listen to people. But it’s more important to not only listen to people, but to have an open mind when you’re listening. If you have made up your mind, and you’re simply remaining quiet while the other person speaks. And and what you’re hearing is wah! Wah! Wah! Wah! And then you’re going to voice your opinion. That’s not listening. Okay. So on the do side. Let’s make sure you listen with an open mind. On the other side of it. And and this is something that that I have faced in a number of roles and different companies. Um. Don’t forget that these business discussions about what we may or may not do as a company. We’ll have a human side. They will impact real live people. Let’s not forget the human factor, and let’s be sure. That among the 5 whys we asked the question, why are we doing this? And let’s keep in mind why, it may have a good or a bad impact on real people. The people side of it, I think, is really important. 2 challenges.

Isaac Sacolick: Thank you, Joe Joanne. I think that’s the the prompt back to you around 5 wise.

Joseph Puglisi: Hi.

Isaac Sacolick: And I see chocolate in there. Worth repeating around chocolate.

Joanne Friedman, Ph.D. Connektedminds: Chocolate is my favorite management tool.

Isaac Sacolick: Yeah.

Joanne Friedman, Ph.D. Connektedminds: Um. You know, I want to put this in context. I do a lot of public speaking as you do, and more often than not. I walk into a room and know absolutely no one, and from that perspective. I have not only become a little bit adept at reading people’s body language. But there’s got to be icebreakers. And I think, even in a heated discussion, if you can. Make people smile. In some way shape or form. You’re taking a lot of that heat away from the debate and drawing their attention to. We are all human. We are all trying to be empathetic. We are all trying to be respectful. We are doing all of these, you know, normal. Ah! Value! Driven activities. But we’re now doing it with strangers. So one of the things that I like to do and I encourage people to do is. If you are. In a group where you really don’t know people very well. Like, if you’re a new employee in a company, and you’re coming in at a uh, you know, an executive level, or just below. Um. But you’ve had responsibility for managing teams and other things. The way. I like to introduce people into that arena is to say to them, Well. 1st of all, there’s chocolate. What chocolate does is, aside from the physical attributes of it’s delicious, and it releases endorphins. It shows people that you care about care enough about them to offer them something. Your give is maybe 10 times greater than what your get is going to be today, but long term it’ll come back and you’ll get get after. Get after, get after get. If you want to break it down into those 2 simple terms of gives and gets. But um. The uh, whether it’s a kindred surprise or a snack, or whatever one of the 1st things I do when I uh. Start to speak is not introduce myself. It’s thank people for their time. It’s thank people for their attention. And more often than not. Who’s hungry? And I always have a basket of something with me, and I’ll give it to someone in the audience and ask them to start passing it around. And if you happen to be allergic to whatever as I am, I make sure that they’re, you know, trying to meet people’s needs. But the idea is, I’m giving you. In return for your time. Not only something to munch on, but a reason to. Clear your mind and focus. On what I’m about to say, or what the speaker is about to say, and you can translate that into the heated discussion of a boardroom where people are very passionate as well. I mean in my history I’ve been known to love kinder surprise across the room at someone, not only to. Reward them for what they’ve said, but also to dissipate the heat and make them focus on the issue at hand. And I mean lob, as in very gently roll down a conference table. But that being said, the idea is to bring people’s focus back. Away, from. The negativity of that passion into a positive passion. We’re all here for the same purpose. We all have ultimately the same goal of making our company more profitable, making our organization more useful to the rest of humanity. And we are, after all, still human beings. So sorry for the long response, but.

Isaac Sacolick: Thank you. That was that was great. Thank you, Joanne.

Liz Martinez: I love it. Food.

Isaac Sacolick: Food uh. Getting more gets because you’re giving. Let’s uh. Let’s let me throw a little curve ball at everybody. This is our last episode of the year. We’re talking about difficult discussion around moral college to do the right thing. Maybe let’s flip this around and look toward 2025, and just share a little bit of what you’re hopeful. Or in this upcoming year. What are you looking forward to? It could be a personal answer. It could be. A professional answer could be something simple. I’m looking for more time to read a book. Or or get in shape, or it could be something a little bit more tangible. I just want to go around the room and leave everybody who’s listening to the coffee with digital trailblazers. Some inspiration for 2025, John, I’ll let you go first.st What do you hope for in 2025.

john: I’m i i’m hoping for for, like like a good year in tech, I’m I, you know. There’s a lot of uncertainty like, you know the government looks like they’re shutting down, and you know we have a a change in the administration. But I’m. You know, I work in tech, and I’ve worked in tech my whole life. And so I’m just. I really hoping that we have a really good year for for all the stuff going on in Tech and the tech workers and. And that’s what I’m really hoping.

Isaac Sacolick: Thank you, John. Uh, Liz, what are you hopeful for next year?

Liz Martinez: Uh! It’s so interesting. I am. I am projecting into the New Year. Love and money. Love and money, and I think that they will flow. One from the other. So I was thinking about what Joe said about listening. Versus active listening. And when you bring. Love. Dare I say the word, love? I know it’s not a word that people like to hear in the business world. But when you bring that empathy and that caring for people in your environment, that. You’re listening naturally becomes active. You’re actually listening to them with a purpose of understanding, and that love is what translates into. You know that reduction of tension, and that um, naturally, you know, translates into money. Frankly, your success. So love and money.

Isaac Sacolick: Thank you, Liz. Who should we go with next? David. What are you hopeful for next year.

David Morgen: I’m I’m hoping for next year to have a greater. Um sharing of. Of understanding and. Similar to what other folks have said, but a. A sense of empathy. I think one of the magazines said that. Polarization was the word of the year. This year. And I’m looking for something where it’s more a matter of. Hey? Uh! Can we come together? Can we understand that we’re we’re all in this uh together? And. Finding common ground, finding things that we actually. Enjoy. With each other. Um, so kind of the reverse of the polarization. That they talked about this year.

Isaac Sacolick: Thank you, David, and thank you for um introducing this really um important topic for us. I can’t wait to. You see all my notes that I’ve been pushing down here on the whiteboard? Um! All this will be shared. Just give me some time I’ve been on the road a little bit the last week I will get this whiteboard published the one from last week’s published. Um, but a lot of good insights here about how to handle difficult situations. Um. And I agree with you. Um! Moving away from polarization to more of sharing and understanding, very thoughtful way to end. Um and be hopeful for next year. David. Thank you for joining us this week, Joe. What are you hopeful for next year.

Joseph Puglisi: Well, Isaac, for the last. 2 years, and for the coming year I’ve I’ve had a New Year’s resolution. I know it’s a bit old school, but I do actually make. A New Year’s resolution, and it has been and will be this year. To be a better version of myself. And by that I mean to stop looking for things that are for me. And rather turning it around and trying to get back. In as many different ways as I can, both to my own family. To my extended family, to my friends, my neighbors. To the community at large, to the technology community. In any place where I can hopefully contribute something in in some positive way. As as you know, I’ve recently joined the planning board in the town of Montvale, so I’m doing some community service. To help our town be a better town. I have been engaged with the SIM Mit program for years. And I. I thoroughly enjoy being a part of this program and moderating panels for a few different organizations. And I hope to continue and do even more. In in 2025.

Isaac Sacolick: Joe. Your better version of yourself is a person who’s just giving back to various communities. Over and over again, and more and more. Grant. I am so grateful that you are part of this program. And and sharing um all your wisdom and insights. Um, um! And just being part of this community, and I love this um. Anecdote that you’re sharing with everybody. Uh, it’s a good thing for everybody to put on their their list. Be a better version of yourself. Joanne, what are you hopeful for next year.

Joanne Friedman, Ph.D. Connektedminds: A return of humanity. And I mean that not to be airy, fairy, but. It’s not. I don’t think that we’re doing enough. In the way of bringing back civil discourse. I don’t think that we’ve been doing enough in the way of. Um decreasing the polarization that you may have in your country. But I think it’s an international thing. Um. So I’m hoping for a return to. The humanistic tendencies that we all used to have where empathy is a leader. Not just another thing that we’re trying to do. But that we become kinder to people. So I’m very hopeful for that. I would echo to a certain extent Liz’s love and and money, because I think we all need both. More and more often than not, people I’ve spoken to in the last little while have said, this has been a really tough year for everybody, and I think that we, as leaders, should acknowledge the fact. That it’s not just other people that it’s happening to. It’s us as well. And that you know we are. We all put our jeans on the same way. Regardless of our ethnicity, regardless of where we live. Or how we operate, or what segment of business we operate in, or services. We’re still human beings, and no matter how much we love our technologies and our new toys. At the end. We are the humans in the loop.

Isaac Sacolick: I am not even going to try to top your list about what I’m hopeful for. I’m gonna keep mine simple. And that is, I hope to get a chance to see all of you in 2025. Meet in person. Uh! Joe and I have met in person a few times this year. I’ve got the chance to see Liz. John, we had a chance, and it fell through. I hope to be in Seattle at some point and same with you with Joanne in Toronto. David, you’re you’re my next door, neighbor. So we got to find time to go see a Yankee game this time around. I’ve got had the chance to see Heather. I see her here on the list, and a few others that are part of the digital trailblazer community. On the bottom left there. But uh, you know, Martin, I haven’t seen you this year, Jennifer. I haven’t seen this year. Rob is all the way out in Europe. Haven’t been able to meet with him. I saw Sandy earlier this year, so I really hope it’s a year where we can make just more human connection. And for me I love seeing you all here on the coffee hour. I’m really grateful for those of you who’ve left. Hellos and comments here. And thank you for that. As Sajit left us a last comment, as more and more investments increase in AI has empathy taking a back seat. I love the fact that we’ve done a whole session today without only mentioning AI in the last 2 min. Folks thank you for joining us, Joanne, Joe, John, Liz, and David. Thank you for being my speakers this week. Week, and joining us. Our discussion in 2 weeks will be on establishing a resilient culture and in 3 weeks implementing safe Jen AI guardrails. Until then everybody have a great. Holiday. Happy holiday season. Uh, we have Christmas. We have Hanukkah. We have Kwanzaa coming up um all around the same time. So it’s going to be a real festive. Part of the year. Uh, thank you for joining us. And uh, you know, bookmark your calendar for next year we will be doing this for the full year. I have some new sponsors that I’m trying to line up so we could do some more exciting things together. Um, I will announce my travel schedule. In uh January in my Newsletter. It looks like in the q. 1 i will be in New Orleans. Houston, our 2 cities that look like I will be in the next year. I’ll let you all know, because, you know, I try to put the dinners together wherever I am traveling. Folks have a happy holiday season. Happy New Year. Thank you for joining us this coffee with digital trailblazers. Derek. Thank you for your topic idea. I’ll be in contact about having you speak at it and tie you have a happy holidays. Everybody have a great New Year. And I will see you all soon. Be happy and healthy.